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Workshop - Playing the Victim Role - Albuquerque, NM 1990 - Part 2 of 2

In creating a companion to the audio files found in the “Links” section,
we strive to give the reader as close a verbatim transcript as possible. 
Dr. Bob’s laid-back “Kentucky-ese” is retained – not correcting his grammar
makes reading it sound like he’s actually talking.
In addition, he purposefully used not only specific words,
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Audience (laughter) is noted; he was a master at keeping the mood up!
(Audience participation is parenthesized and separated from his words.)
Emphasized words are in italics.  Sometimes tenets of the Teachings are in bold.
[Anything that offers clarity is added by the proofreader and italicized inside brackets.]

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Playing the Victim Role & The Tone Scale; Think-Act-Feel
Albuquerque, NM ~ 1990


[begins with some participants talking]

(I got arrested at lunch.) 


(I got arrested at lunch.  The store detective?  Yeah, according to him, he thought I had stolen a pack of Rolaids and I hadn’t stolen anything!  He pulled me upstairs and I had to fill out a form and he let me go.  I paid for ‘em – I just didn’t have a receipt, see.  That’s all…)  [A little more unintelligible conversation continues.]

(Do you think he believed you?)

So, we’ll do something that should be a little appropriate.  We’ll do a Tone Scale[he draws it on the board]  We’ll do a Tone Scale here.  We’ll put a bottom and a top on it, so we’ll leave that up there.  The Tone Scale is how you feel inside and it's probably one of the more valuable things we do – is take care of our inner state.  Might as well feel real good all the time as “yuk”.  And, of course, a whole lot of people feel “yuk” all the time.  So let's see how it would be if we really felt “up” all the time.  There's two ways to feel – up and down.  “Down”, why everything hangs and everything and if you're “up”, everything’s up.

So did you ever see somebody with their flesh of their legs hangin’ down over their shoe tops? Did you ever see that?  They're down.  (laughter)  They’re real down.  You see other people with their chins hangin’ way down here, you know.  They're down.  A lot of people have ear lobes even hangin’ way down.  So, they're down.  (laughter)  So, the first one you’ll start with is a Coma.  In a Coma, you don’t have any feeling, so you put a point zero one [.01] for that.

(Hey, you wanna turn on the mic, Bob.)

Well, all right. 

(There you go.)

There you go – went bang somewhere, so it’s all right now.  Okay, so we’ll repeat the past few words.  The lowest form of a feeling you can have is a Coma, which is no feeling at all, practically – barely is alive.

Now the next one is where we see people out on the street and so forth and they're in Apathy [1.0].  Now, that's the ultimate “down” other than the Coma, which you got to be layin’ down.  (laughter)  Apathy you can walk around, but everything's hangin’ down.  Legs are hangin’ down over your shoe tops, your chin’s hanging down here and great big rolls of stuff, ear lobes is down, comers of the mouth is down, everything's down.  And, of course, we’ll call that one “one” [1.0] on the Tone Scale and it's not a very desirable state to be in.  Thank goodness I don't see anybody fits that description here today. They wouldn't have the energy to have gotten here.  That's all there is to it, so they're not here.  So I can always talk about them a little bit.  (laughter)

The next one is Fear [2.0]. Fear is down, but not as severe as Apathy. That's number 2.0.  Now the fearful person is generally holdin’ a lot of water in their system and so they're overweight and it's in lumps of various kinds here, yon, and elsewhere.  So one time long ago, the homeopathic profession called – inasmuch as this was half of their practice – they called that “wet man” ‘cause he's full of water.

And then the next one up is Held Resentment [3.0].  Now, they resent it but they’re afraid to do anything about it.  Held Resentment, he's burned himself up, so he is very dry, super skinny, all out of shape down there, so the homeopaths called him “dry man”.

Now this took care of their practice.  They didn't have people down here:  Apathies don't go to the doctor; they're not able.  And up here they’re not goin’ to ‘cause they don't believe in it – foolishness and a bunch of stuff.  So, the great percentage of the practice – in fact practically all of it – was “wet man” and “dry man”. 

So they classified these and they formulated a treatment that they use – one for wet man, one for dry man.  The old homeopathic physician said he had two vest pockets and he kept the remedy for dry man in the right pocket and the remedy for the wet man in the left pocket.  So he could just take care of anybody no matter where he met ‘em on the street or what-have-you.  And it worked pretty well, believe it or not.  It's all suggestion anyway, but that’s all right.

So after Held Resentment – the dry man – we get Anger [4.0].  Now, the angry man don’t go to the doctor very often; he don’t believe in those quacks.  He just don't go to ‘em when there's no reason.  ‘Til he finally has a heart attack or somethin’ of that nature and then they drag him in; so he bitches about it while he’s there.  And angry man has a pot-belly.  A big one out here.  He isn’t overweight or [has] fat weight, but he has this big tummy.  So he is angry.  [his mic comes unhooked again and he works to reconnect it]  Aw, I won’t get angry at it – it’ll just stop.

So after Angry comes Boredom [5.0].  Now, the Boredom person looks all right, but he says, “What’s the use?” And that’s about the end of his show – he’s not interested in anything, particularly.  No matter what, he’s not interested in it – it’s all right, he’s not interested.

And then comes Contentment [6.0].  Now, Contentment sounds pretty good, doesn’t it?  Except it’s just barely on the borderline.  [he assigns the numbers to each Tone]  So this is two, this is three, this is four, this is five, and this is six.  Now from here up, they get better.  From here down, they get less and less better.

So here is the ones up about as far as we usually see in our days’ conversation and middlin’ around with people – is about Contentment, now and then, is about as high as we get it.  The rest of the time, it’s below that. 

So there’s one above that’s really of a different version and it’s called Vital Interest [7.0].  Now, if you’re in Vital Interest, you can’t wait to get up in the mornin’ and get about whatever it is you do that you’re vitally interested in.  It’s no draggin’ off to work – ughh! – 20 cups of coffee to try to get it up or anything of the sort.  You’re interested!  You get up and you want to go!  Many things to do – not just to make money, but just interesting things to do.  Now that person is livin’ pretty well and as Miss Barbara said this morning, they’re not sick very much.  They may have a little accident now and then, but they’re not seriously ill.  They don’t have time to get in this Vicious Cycle of havin’ all those things – chemical imbalance and all that kind of stuff.  They do pretty good.  Okay?  Not perfect, but they do pretty well. 

And then, there’s one above that that we call Exhilaration [8.0].  That one is when you’re so happy, you don’t know what to do.  And you don’t usually get much work done because you just flat enjoy it.  So why go do anything?  You’re already there!  So Exhilaration just happens.  There is really no technique to get there, but it just happens now and then and that day you might as well take off, (laughter) because you’re not gonna do anything.

Now there happens to be some more all the way up to 20.  But I’m not gonna talk about those because they’re clear out of our line of reasoning today.  We will talk about Vital Interest as a place you can live about 99 per cent of the time.  And one percent of the time, you’ll be in Exhilaration.  That’s the day off – don’t bother to work or anything cause you won’t get nothin’ done anyway.  Some lady told me not too long ago that she was in Exhilaration all last summer.  And she didn’t get a thing done, which was fine.  She felt wonderful, but she just didn’t get anything done.  So, as long as we live in a society which kind of counts success with what you get done and so forth, I guess we’d better let Exhilaration alone and stay in Vital Interest.

Now, the next question is, how do you get to Vital Interest from Fear or Held Resentment or Anger or somewheres?  So we’ll try to cover that.  There’s about three things that any one of us can do.  And there’s about only three.  You agree to that? 

(I don’t know.)

You don’t know.  Well, lets try ‘em on by lookin’ at ‘em.  You can Think, obviously.  Yeah?  You can Act.  And you can Feel.  Now, can you tell me anything else that we might be able to do as humans?

(How about create?)



That’s action, very definite action. Think of anything else any of us can do?  Besides feel, act, think; think, act feel; act, feel, think – whatever way you want to put ‘em together, can you think of anything else you can do?  Can you think of anything else you can do, Sara?  That covers the ground.

Okay, so now let's see how we could use those.  So let's say that you’re in Fear.  You wake up in the mornin’ kinda feelin’ a little fearful; a little insecure, you know we call it.  And then we act like we feel.  And then after a while we think to try to explain why we feel so lousy.  Now, we’ve done this all day, see.  That spells fat:  F - A - T.  That's what we call a “fathead”.  You know, you just go along however how you feel when you wake up – that's what you're stuck with.  Just go on and act it out, act it and think and you do that today… you can probably do it tomorrow… and the next day… and the next day… and the next day, (laughter) and pretty soon you’re in a habit of feeling a certain way, of acting a certain way, and thinking a certain way.  You got there.  You got the habit now.

Now as long as you're in that state, you're going to feel pretty crappy most of the time because we woke up some mornin’ feelin’ – maybe we eat dill pickles for dinner last night or something – we feel kind of yuck this mornin’.  Instead of drinkin’ a cup of coffee and gettin’ it up, we just stay with it.

Now let's say that you decided consciously that you would like to live in Vital Interest.  It's a glorious state.  It's wonderful, isn’t a thing wrong with it.  So we would Think first, "How would I like to feel?  I'd like to feel in Vital Interest."  Okay, suppose I already felt that way, how would I be acting?  So “Act” comes next in there.  How would I be acting if I really felt in Vital Interest right now?  Well, man I would be “up” wouldn't I?  I'd be movin’ around like I knew where I was goin’, I would have a smile on my face, I would be actin’ vitally interested, truthfully.  Put it down – that’s what we’d be doin’.

And so we begin to Act that way for a while, and as action and feeling is always a two-way street, no matter how you find ‘em.  Action and Feeling is a two-way street.  So as you Act it you would begin to Feel in a little while, okay?  So then you would feel vitally interested.  Now, if you kept this up again like you did the other one, you'd have a habit of doing it.  You'd just start doin’ it when you got up of a morning.  You wouldn't wait.

How’d you feel when this guy took you up to check you out while ago?  A little resentful?

(I felt suddenly intimidated, claiming that I stole something I didn't.  And I thought, "Well, all right, I'll go with this.")

Uh, huh… go along with it…  

(At least I won't have to pay double the price for it. No, I wasn't feeling vitally interested.)  (laughter)

I didn’t think so!  Well, it was an interesting situation [chuckling] for the rest of us; might as well have been for you, is that right?

(These things only happen when I see you!)  (big laughter)

So you're a good demonstration, you see, Paul.  I'll have you for a demonstrator.  So if you could Think – Act – Feel and keep it up, you would be in Vital Interest in a little while.  Okay?  Now Vital Interest is a very wonderful place to exist.  We live in our feelings – let's face it.  You know, someone walks up to you, “How you feeling today?" you know… we usually tell ‘em.

So if he walked up to you and he said "How are you feelin’?" and you said, "I feel fantastic," he won't ask you tomorrow.  (laughter)  He don't wanna know, he just goes on.  He don’t ask you tomorrow.  So, you could feel any way you want to feel as long as you stop to think about it first:

How do I want to feel?
How would I act if I already felt this way?  And begin to act that way.
And the feeling will take place.

And you have a completed phenomenon that you can be anywheres on this Tone Scale you want.  Now I don't know why anybody would want to be in Apathy, or Fear, or Held Resentment, or Anger, or Boredom or any of these; but you can be any of ‘em you wanted to.

If you say, “I want to be angry, that's what I want to do today,” all you got to start to do is actin’ like you're angry.  Clench your jaw, clamp your fist, walk around and kick a few things and stomp the floor and in 30 minutes, you'll be angry – and good!  And then you just keep on actin’ that way and you could be the perfect picture of Anger in a matter of minutes.  Thirty minutes at the least.  That’ll usually take care of it; 30 minutes will handle it.

So you can feel any way you wanted to in 30 minutes.  Now let's just see how many people here would like to feel Vitally Interested.  We got plenty of time to do it the next 30 minutes. Let's just see.  Want to do it?  Okay, let's start!  You've done the thinkin’, “How would I like to feel?  I'd like to feel vitally interested.  How would I act if I was vitally interested?  I’d be UP. Everything would be up – simple and easy.  And I do that for 30 minutes and I would be in Vital Interest.

And incidentally, if you'd like to make a lot of money, that's the first thing you got to do – you're vitally interested.   That’s the first thing to makin’ a lot of money.  You can't go around angry, and bored, and held resentment, and fearful and make a lot of money.  It just don't work.  It's not in the book to do it that way.  So, we'll get to talkin’ about money next time.  Right now we're talking about how to get to a feeling – how to get to a feeling and you can feel any way you like. You can do it within 30 minutes.  And it doesn't take hardly any effort at all, Paul, just a little thinkin’, “How do I want to feel?  How would I act if I already felt that way?” and begin to act that way, okay?

Now a lot of us wouldn't know how we acted if we did feel good ‘cause we’ve never felt good long enough to check up on it.  (laughter)  But let's say that you wanted to feel pretty good.  So you'd check up.  You got a good smile?  You standing erect?  [he addresses the man who got stopped by the store detective]  Not like you got the weight of the world against you.

(That happened 30 minutes ago.)  (big laughter)

But you're still hangin’, still hangin’.  [the man sits up straighter, pulls his shoulders back]  Now then that gets a little better, that's comin' up a bit!  Now then, we're getting there, Paul!  And we started to act that way, we begin to feel that way.  Now when you feel vitally interested, there's nothing you can't tackle to do.  That's right, nothing you can’t tackle and do.  Just go do it – feel like doin' it.

(You know I’m in the dark.  What happened to Paul 30 minutes ago?)

He got accused for takin’ two rolls of Rolaids when he only took one.  (huge laughter)

(I didn’t do it!  I took one and I paid for one.  He pulled me upstairs and said, "You stole this."  I said, “No, I didn’t.”)

Somebody really checked him out.  (laughter)  He just looks suspicious. (laughter)  He just looks that way whether he did it or not.  If he hadn't even bought one, they would have accused him of taking ‘em.

(I'm feeling much better right now.)  (laughter)

Right!  You're gonna keep it up!  You’re gonna keep it up – feelin’ a lot better, right?

(Right, because I don't want to be arrested.)  (big laughter)

You don’t wanna be arrested anymore.  You're going around with a top mood on, so interested that nobody would think of you as being a thief.  You could have told ‘em if you was gonna steal anything, you’d have stolen something better than a 25 cent Rolaid. (laughter)


If I'm gonna steal, it's gonna be somethin’ worthwhile.

(Bob, how does this work with the concept, let’s say for example, grief?)

With grief?

(This concept.  How it works with something like grief where people say, “You really must let yourself feel the grief.  Recently, someone very dear to me died and I got up in the morning and really felt awful; but I said, “No, I'm going to think, I'm going to act,” and two years later I had a breakdown, so I never let myself grieve.)

How do you know about that two-year breakdown?

(I can only speak from example. I haven't had someone close to me die, but I've seen this happen with people and –)

Well, I've seen people that kept it covered up for two years, but they thought about it every day of the week.  They thought about it every day of the week and it finally got more than they could stand.  Yes, grief is a substance that's gonna last for a few days.  But time heals grief; it don't last two years, or three years or any of that, you know.  It goes away.

(My question is, do you think there’s space in our lives where sometimes we need to allow ourselves to feel the grief or the anger for a short time?)

For maybe a day.  


Is that all right?  Feel it for a day and get up the next morning and start off. ‘Cause you're not gonna do anything for the dead person by layin’, grievin’.  Is that right?  You're not gonna do a thing for the dead person, you're not gonna do anything for yourself, you're not gonna do anything for the family.  So grieve one day and start over the next mornin’.  Yes, sir…

(You said that if you choose Vital Interest you could include grief or you could include the anger as something to have and not feel the effect of?)

You're askin’ an impossible question.  Can I be in Vital Interest and Anger at the same time? No, it don't work.

(Can you be in Vital Interest and grief at the same time?)


(Can you be vitally interested in your grief?)  (Lots of laughter)

It’s a wonderful statement.  It's a wonderful statement but it don't work, dear. It's like somebody asked me the other day if they could have a healthy anger.  (laughter)

(Are those questions really asking, “Can I be in grief and not be a victim at the same time?”)

Somethin’ like that.  They won’t say it.  But, you know, somebody died, that doesn't mean you’re a victim; but you can treat yourself as a victim over it or as a woebegone person for years.  I know people who have kept grief alive for 10 years – by workin’ on it. You know…the person’s turned to dust before now, so why worry about it?  Good Lord.

(Can you experience grief without being a victim?)

It'd be pretty rough.  I said you could have grief for one day.  You can feel victimized for one day and feel a victim and miserable for one day and great grief.  But the next day you might as well get up and go on with Life, okay?  That about right?  Just get up and go on.  You know, it'll be your turn to die someday.  (laughter)

(Don't you think that grief really is a selfish feeling?)

Yeah, to a great degree, but we'll allow people to have it for one day, okay?

(It took me more than one day.  I lost my husband and it took me more than one day.)

Well, I know… you used more than one day.  

(Yes.)  (laughter)

I agree to that.

(No matter how you try, you still…)

I know, if you had a went this way, you could have done it, but not all the other methods that you could’a used would because they all reinforced the feeling of grief, right? 


Yes, ma’am…

(Is there a place on the scale where we really give up victimhood and begin Vital Interest?  Where we’re no longer saying, “I’m being a victim”?)

Yep, if you get in Vital Interest, why, you no longer say it.  “I'm playin’ a victim,” – always remember it's “playin’”.  Yes, sir…

(All of the levels continue to be self-referential – in other words, they look back on one’s self.  When is it – and maybe it’s in the 9-20 you don’t have up there – does one give up the references to the self and puts one’s attention outward?  Can you speak to that?)

Vital Interest puts your attention outwardly, right away.  [he points to the board]  This one does.  Right here, puts you out.  If I'm vitally interested in things, I'm not concerned with me and all that kind of stuff.  The attention is put outward, right there.  Right then.  Okay?  All right, next comment, question?  This is a good one – let’s keep goin’ at it.  Yes, ma’am…

(What about being “free to experience”, like grief or anything else?)

Well, you can be free to do anything you like.  You can be free to live in Apathy, you can be free to live in Anger, or guilt or anywheres you want.  It doesn't make it any healthier – you’re just free to do it, okay?  So you might as well be free to live in Vital Interest, is that right?

(Is “free to experience”, is that not a form of surrender?)

That is correct, dear, but you don't surrender to all these miserable states of being down here, okay.  Be careful what you surrender to.  Okay?  Next comment, question?

(How do you define surrender?)

The simplest terms?  Just don't give a damn anymore.  (laughter)  That all right?  Yes, sir…

(How do you distinguish that from apathy then – if you don’t give a damn anymore?)

About this particular subject, it's quite different.  Apathy is about everything and this one is about one thing that he's mentioning here.  It's about one thing.  Now, nobody says that you shouldn't feel in Apathy, or Fear, or Anger, or Held Resentment, or Boredom or whatever you want to.  We just say there is a way up.  Now, if a person wants to feel grief for 14 weeks, they can do so.  If they want to do it for four years, they can do so.  I have no saying they're wrong or anything else.  I just say it's unnecessary, okay.

(Not healthy.)

Not very healthy and not necessary, right.  Okay?  Yes, ma’am…

(Excluding the lady who didn't get anything done for a year in Exhilaration –)

Yeah – all summer, not all year – just about 6 months.

(Ok, but don’t' you think it’s possible to go on up and live in Exhilaration and get something done?)

Don’t seem to be.  In all the upper states I know about, people’s not too interested in accomplishin’ everyday affairs, okay?

(You were just talking about Vital Interest for everyday affairs.)

Yes, that's a good one to live in; others are for enjoyment only, okay?  (laughter)  And they just happen.  I don't know a way to bring ‘em about – they just happen.

(Everybody’s sitting here thinking what do you do to get in this state, you know?)

Oh yeah, well then everybody would do nothing.  They’d feel fantastic, but do nothing.  So, we do need a few things done in the world.  You need some meat cut and some gas pumped and, you know, your car fixed and a few things that can be done under Vital Interest.  So, we do need people to stay down in that area somewhat.  Paul?

(There was an expression a while back I think it has to do with this: “spying on oneself”.)


(Spying on oneself.  Would you tie that in please with Vital Interest level, how they’re tied in together?)

Oh, not spying at all – just livin’ it, man.  Spyin’ is when you’re down here and seeing if you’re feelin’ appropriately “griefed” enough.  That’s Apathy.  You’re saying, "Am I really showing that I'm really grieving?"

One time I met a lady, she came in for a private appointment, and she told me all the ways she felt so sorry herself – she was a victim of the enth water.  And she said, “The nicest day of my life was one day I imagined that I was in my casket in a beautiful lingerie robe, and flowers all over the place, and the whole family was there – grieving.”  That was the happiest day of her life.  (laughter)  I said, "Well, I can put you in that position."  (huge laughter)  Get you so they'll have you all dolled up and settin’ in front of the altar in a casket in a few hours.  And she got a little disturbed about that.  I wasn't supposed to talk about that; I was supposed to let her have her dream.  So anyway, she's still alive… that was many years ago.  But that was the happiest day of her life was havin’ all the family grieving over her.  And of course, she would have never wanted ’em to quit grievin’.  She would have wanted ‘em ten years from now, be grievin’, just as sure.  Okay, another comment?  This was a good one.  We can keep it talking for quite a while here.  Yes, sir…

(Would you comment on not identifying with that state of Vital Interest?)

Oh, I wouldn't identify with it, I wouldn't have time to.  You’d just be vitally interested.  You wouldn’t have time to identify with it.

(If that happens, well, how does that happen?  With me, that happens.)

You got vitally interested and wanted to stay there.  Oh well, that's where there's no surrender.  (laughter)  That's the day that it can go or it can stay.  All right?  That’s it, that’s all – go or stay.  You don't want it to stay all the time… let it go for a few minutes.  Okay, next question, comment, whatever…

(Will you talk about physical types?)

Yeah, we’ll get there next.  [points to woman with her hand up]  Get you first.

(You made definitions for physical descriptions of everyone except for Boredom.)

Except Boredom.  I said they just [he pantomimes “drooping”] – that’s all.  They're not fat, skinny, or anything, they're just bored.  

(I guess I see that in a lot of teenagers –)

Yep, they’re very easily bored, teenagers are very easily bored, kids are very easily bored.  A kid 7 or 8 years old walks into your house today, he says in effect, "Entertain me!” and
you do for a while and you finally give out and can’t do it, and then he says, "I'm bored."

(That experience wasn’t something I ever really experienced when I was a teenager –)

Oh, yeah, they’re just bored – just let 'em alone.  They'll grow out of it – eventually; or go some other way.  Okay now, there was a question over here.  Yes…

(You talked about the body types of the other, but not about Vital Interest.  What is –)

I said Vital Interest looks fantastically well.

(And they feel good and they don't have the adaptations around.)

Well, they got a little here and there if under a stressful situation, but mostly they feel disgustingly good, okay?  (laughter)  Doctors look at ‘em as disgusting people:  “What are you doin’?”  Yes, sir…

(I wanted to say something on behalf of Boredom.  That's where I've been the most inventive.)

You've been the most inventive there?


Well, you were bored with what was so you decided to be vitally interested and make somethin’.  Okay.  Boredom is a good place to take off for Vital Interest.  [microphone challenge again]  This tape is gonna be a little zip-zip-zip-zip-zip… it’s all right.  Okay, any other comments or questions on this one here?  Okay, all right.  Joe?

(There seems to be a lot of interest everywhere among people in trying to get up to certain states in order to be more intuitive or more psychic or something.  Could you comment on that?)

Oh yes, while they're “down here” they talk about it, “I just want to get up there so I’ll be more intuitive, more psychic power,” and all this stuff.  If they want to be psychic or intuitive, they would go to Vital Interest, okay, Joe?  That's about the only place it comes across – that and above.  Now the lady that spent the summer in Exhilaration had a few experiences.  That's all they were was experiences.  She could probably sell those for years, okay?  (laughter)  Probably write ‘em up and sell ‘em.  Whether she has enough energy to now or not, I don't know.  (laughter)  We'll find that out later, okay? 

Okay, everybody’s quiet, so let’s take a break until three o’clock.  And at three o’clock, we’re gonna talk about how to make a lot of money.

(All right!)  (laughter)

That is a special request subject for me.

[END CD #3 of 4]

[Beginning CD 4 of 4]

Playing the Victim Role & Making Money
Albuquerque, NM 1990

[starts with the tail end of a conversation about the recorded tapes]  We’ll have little intermissions in ‘em because the microphone fell off.  (laughter)  Okay?  Put it down like it is, okay? 

So we said we would talk today – this is a special request from many people.  Everybody in Albuquerque must be so prosperous, they want to make more money.  Anyway, they wanted me to talk about how to make money. 

So the first thing I will tell you is that every human being is an unspecialized creature.  You know, a dog can smell, and a cat can sit and pounce and sit with great patience, birds can sail and fly and see things on the ground and all these many things.  But the human being is unspecialized.  So the only thing a human being can do is play a role.  I’ve mentioned that a few times today and I thought I’d clarify it a little bit.  So the only thing you can do is play a role.  You’re a human being – you have no great, special skills.  A horse can outrun you any day in the week – anything.  Just go out and look at ‘em – all the animals got somethin’ you can’t do, but they’re all specialized and they can’t do anything else.  But a human can do about anything he wants to as long as he looks at it as a role and he will play that role.  So, we’ll talk about the role of makin’ money. 

So, the first role in makin’ money is to not be wanting to make money.  It’s to be vitally interested in doing something, but not in making money.  I don’t think there is a role to play that says, “Make money.”  I checked up on that one time – the government  has a monopoly on it.  (laughter)  And you try it and they call it counterfeitin’.  What they make isn’t any better, but… they made it.  So, you don’t want to make money; you want to do something very interesting to you. 

Now, if you do something that’s very interesting, you will make some money.  Now, you don’t make money havin’ a job with somebody – that you just make a few dollars there.  If you really want to make money, you be in a business for yourself that you really enjoy, that you can’t wait to get up in the mornin’ to get out and start doin’ it.  And then you will make money.  You’re not gonna make a lot of money havin’ a job with somebody.  You’ll make $50 to $1,000 a week, or if you’re lucky, $2,000.  But you’re not going to make an awful lot workin’ for another man, somebody else.  That’s just a very insignificant little role.  The one you wanna do is to make a business for yourself and something you’re very interested in and you’re interested in doin’ the thing, rather than, “I’m gonna make money.”

Now, the next thing that interferes with people mankin’ money – they talk it to death.  They hear of some deal and they tell everybody they see all about this deal and how they’re gonna make a lot of money and they’re gonna do this.  If you just go on and do your thing, without talkin’ about it, you’re liable to make quite a bit of money.  But you don’t go around talkin’ about it to everybody you know that’s totally disinterested that you can bend their ear.  Did you ever have anybody tell you about all the money they was gonna make, Jean?  Did they make it?


Nope.  They talked it to death.  They got all their kicks out of it, talkin’ about it.  So, you don’t get kicks outa talkin’ about it.  So that is really the simplest thing, put it together is how you make a lot of money.  You do somethin’ you’re very interested in, in a business of your own, and you don’t talk to people about it – only the very minimum and be sure he’s a prospect when you’re [chuckling] talkin’ to him, not just somebody out here, rattlin’.  You know, I meet up with guys, “I’m gonna make a million and I’m going into this business or that business.”  Or, “I’m gonna make a million in this one or five million,” or whatever.  And it never happens.  I see ‘em five years later and it finally fell through, or they’re still talkin’ about it or whatever the case may be, but it doesn’t work.  And but if you’re doin’ somethin’ you’re really interested in, enjoyin’ it and not talkin’ it to death, you’re gonna make some money, okay?  That’s simple, it’s easy, to the point. 

Now let’s have lots of questions on this one.  Everybody here said they wanted me to talk about makin’ money – let’s talk about it now and I’ll talk in detail on it.  I talked on general principle.  Now, let’s talk on specifics here.  You want to make money?

(No, I don’t.)  (laughter)

Okay.  I didn’t think so.

(Don’t you think a lot of good energy is wasted on trying to make money, or wanting to make money?  Other than just doing it?)

Just doin’ it, just goin’ makin’ it – yeah.  A lot of energy’s wasted.  “I’m going to make it!”  But that don’t work – you talk it all out then, okay?  But if you’d like to have it, I will talk about some specific ways you can have it, okay?  Yes, sir…

(Doesn’t what you were just saying explain Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken?)

You been what?  (laughter)

You’ve been eyein’ Boesky and Mr. Milken.  They made it… but did they get to keep it?

(No, but they made it.)

Oh, yeah.  There’s a lot of ways to get it; you can go steal it tonight.  Point is, there’s a great Swiss statement – I think it’s contributed to the Swiss – “It’s very hard to make money and five times as hard to keep it.”  After you’ve made it.  So, they didn’t get to keep it.  Besides that, they spent time in the pokey; or one of ‘em did and the other one’s going to.  That right? 

(Very true.  But I think they were very interested in money.)

They no doubt were.  They were interested in what they were doin’ – I know that.  And they used some conniving to do it.  So we could do a little connivin’ and go over and rob the bank over here on the corner.  It’s some somethin’ or other, used to be Albuquerque National.  But gettin’ to keep it’d be pretty rough.  Okay?  So I’d hardly think Mr. Milken and Mr. Boesky are prime examples, do you?  I don’t think so.  Okay, we dropped that subject, now we’ll go here.  Yes, Lonnie…    

(So, basically it's providing a service and the other stuff comes along with it.)

Providing a service, somethin’ you're interested in providing, and then the rest of it comes along with it as long as you don't talk about it too much, ok?  Okay, next one.  Yes, sir…

(Do you have any comments about if you have lots and lots of options available determining what is of vital interest?)

Oh yeah, do 'em all!  Do ‘em all.  Or do em all – certain one or other of ‘em now and the others next year or somethin’.  But if you're vitally interested – not just saying this is an opportunity to make money, which is not Vital Interest – but if you’re really interested in it, I'd take the one or three or four I was most interested in, put the others in the pocket ‘til next year, and don't be talkin' to everybody ‘cause they'll do it, okay?  Yes, ma’am…

(When you are starting out with Vital Interest as a self-employed person, keeping that Vital Interest high to see you over the initial humps, and not sinking into the boredom and the resentment and the “woe is me”, what could you teach us… to continue?)

“I'm playin’ the victim role” every time I felt like I was “blech!” and you'll be back up the next day.

(I can’t find _________ unclear)

Maybe after four o’clock, okay?  Be there quick if you do it, okay?  Yes, sir…

(What if one’s Vital Interest is not associated with making money?  How can one make money on the one side, and pursue one’s Vital Interests on the other?)

The Vital Interest will make money if you're really vitally interested in it.

(In making money.)

Aw, not necessarily makin’ money – just in Vital Interest.  You’ll make money at it.  Everybody always has, that they’re vitally interested and not talkin’ it to death, they’ll make money.  Yep.  If you’re vitally interested in flyin’ pigeons, you can make money at it.  Seems like a weird one, but you can.

(That right, Homer?)  [someone corrects him]  (Howard.) 

Howard?  Howard can tell you, yeah.  You make money at it, can’t you, Howard?

(Yes, Sir.)

Sure can.  If you're interested in breeding white mice, you can make a gob of money at it.  I know a guy who does.  So let your Vital Interest make the funds, okay?  Next question, comment?  Here you are…

(You said just do all of them. How long do you pursue something before you realize that you’re really not –?)

If you're vitally interested in it, I'd keep on pursuin’ it.

(Well, you were saying then the few next year, do some of them next year.)

Well, then do a few more. You add on next year. 

(Can you divide your interest between too many energies?)

Oh, you could if you felt that you were in a lack of energy; but if you're vitally interested, you've got lots of energy, so you can do 10 business projects as well as one, okay?  If you're really interested in ‘em, now.  You see we want people to pay attention that they're really interested, not just, "Oh that'd be wonderful,” and that's the end of it, see.  You can make money paintin’ pictures, can't you, Barbara?  Sure!  You can do anything you’re interested in.  Yes, sir…

(In our semi-awake state, don't we often confuse Vital Interest with our need for attention and power?)

Oh yes, we could do that, but we said take a look at it and see.  I think you can keep your Vital Interest up there.  If it's vitally interested in having power, man, go for it.  You know?  So what.  

(Get your fill.)

Get your fill of it.  And while you're havin’ the Vital Interest to do that – have power – you're liable to find an excellent use for the power, okay?  Very good.  Okay?  All right, next question, comment? 

(Bob, are you saying that even vices… well, what someone might particularly consider a vice… can be turned around with Vital Interest and something good can come out of it?)

If it's not a vice. yes.  (laughter)  You know, you could convince yourself that a vice was quite all right, but it would take some convincing to do that, okay?  Sure you’re vitally interested, that's number one item out on the pole, okay?  Okay, another comment, question?  All clear as mud, all go out and be rich next week, okay?

(I don't know about everybody else, but I think that sometimes we adults have lost that incredible curiosity and joy that children have about vital interest.)

That's correct.

(And I think that maybe there might be some quietness in this room because we have been so busy making a living –)

– that we didn't have time to make any money.  (laughter)  That's correct.  That’s very true, dear one – be so damn busy makin’ a livin’ that you don't have time to make money.  That we know.  Did you have your hand up?

(Will you comment on what we can do when we're working for other people and they may not be in Vital Interest?)

Leave as soon as possible. (laughter)  Leave as soon as possible.  Stay around people with Vital Interest and you'll have a better chance of keeping yours up, okay?  All right?  No more questions here?  We got gobs of people, let’s have questions.

(Well, Bob, in the Science of Mind, everybody works on visual clearness and the Science of Mind would still be –)

Yes, I'm aware of that.

(Everybody visualizes, and….)

And materializes.

(And uses creative imagination to bring in all this supply.)

Yep.  I know.  How many has it?

(Probably a lot of ‘em, I don't know for sure – anybody want to raise their hands?)

Yes, let's raise hands. Who’s got all the funds they want from visualization, actualization, etcetera?  I said you gotta have a good mood and that's a good mood, okay?  That's one thing.

(In other words, that puts you in a state of Vital Interest just to do that?)

Well, not necessarily in a state of Vital Interest, sometimes it puts you in a state of “vital anxiety”.  (huge laughter)  So, I know the story, honey.  I'm well read on it.  I've read most of the material, and I know about it.  And I’m in the proper facility.  [the group was meeting in a Church of Religious Science building]  But I don't have to agree with it, okay?

(I was afraid you'd say that.)  (laughter)

Figured I might [chuckling] come up with some fool somethin’ like that.  Yes, sir…

(As I understand from what I’ve experienced when I've played with things like that, what has happened when I was doing that, for the time being I was not reporting any emergencies. Things worked pretty well simply because I wasn't reporting that everything's wrong.)

Right, you reported you had a good mood, which was wonderful.  I agree to that 100 percent.  The rest of it gets a little fuzzy.  But gettin’ a good mood is very accurate, Miss Carol.  Yes, very good – have a good mood.  That’s very essential, no matter where you get it or what it goes, that's very essential to have.

(How do you feel about the concept of tithing… as a way to make money?)

Tithing?  Well, I don't think it's a way to make money, but I think it's an excellent way to spend 10 percent of it.  Okay?  I try to do tithing, not by some moral principle, but because it's simply good manners, okay?  Very simply good manners.  If I did it to make money, I'd be horse-tradin’.  I'd be tryin’ to pay ten percent to get a hundred and that wouldn't work, I don't think.  I pay it simply as good manners, okay?  And I'm not particular where I put it, but I do try to put out ten percent for all that I may take in – someplace that I have no interest in.  In other words if I give a man a twenty dollar bill, I don't care whether he buys booze with it or a pair of boots; that's his business, not mine.  I'm not gonna follow him around and see what he spent it for.  All right, okay?

(Bob, a lot of people have difficulty just deciding what is interesting.)

That is very true ‘cause they're not interested in anything, so they're trying to find an interest.  Right.  So they say. "Well, I don’t know whether I'll be interested in this; but no, "I can see what's wrong with that."  So while I think, “I'll go in the feed business, but it looks like the farmers are quitting feeding their animals, and so I don't guess I'll do that.”  And someone says, "Well, I think I'll go in the gasoline business… well, people are drivin’ diesel cars and quittin’ buyin’ gas."  They talk themselves out of everything when they're really not interested.  So they do have problems finding what's interesting.  That's the first problem out.  Okay?  And we agree that it is a problem to most people – that they've got to really look to see that they're interested.  They can't be interested, vitally interested, and angry or fearful and all these things.  They've got to get that out first and then they can go on up, okay?  Paul?

(That expression comes to mind – I don’t know what it means – “cast your bread upon the waters”.  How does that apply to tithing, to an attitude toward money?)

Well, it didn't say anything about tithing when they said cast your bread on the waters, and after many days it will return to you.  So the idea is that you spend freely when you see somethin’ to spend it for.  Don't worry about it; it'll come back eventually.  It didn't mean throw it on the water, Paul, ‘cause it’ll just get soggy and sink.  (laughter)  Yes, ma’am…

(What advice would you have for someone who actually is in Vital Interest?  I think of people, for example, artists, writers, ministers, some teachers who truly are in Vital Interest, but they're living in poverty. The money's not coming back.  There’s something…)

Something haywire there, isn't it?  Okay, so they got to change their thing, and one of the things is they have a big fear, a fear that –

(They can be in Vital Interest about your work and still be in fear?)

Yeah, they get fear over, “Well, this business won't pay.  These people will come, but they won’t leave any money,” and so forth.  They are playing the victim role a little bit, okay?  They get out of that, they’ll find they can make some money.  Joe, where are you?  You makin’ any money sellin' pictures these days?


You're surviving.

(I’m having a good time.)

That's wonderful.  Joe, a year ago, couldn't paint a picture.  Now he can paint a picture he can sell.  So, he's vitally interested in paintin’ pictures ‘cause it keeps him out of work.  (laughter)  So he paints pictures and they sell.  But he's not afraid they won't sell, are you?  No, just go to it, sell it.  Yes, sir…

(What would you suggest on maximizing or keeping what you’ve got, what you make?)

After you've made it, don't invest it in the stock market.  (laughter)

(That is right.)

That's a good way to lose it, isn’t it?  


That'll go, ‘cause that's at the whim of the Federal Reserve.  They may decide to sell securities today instead of buyin’ ‘em.  And if they sell, things are gonna get tight.  So it’ll be a little rough to keep it, so I would suggest if a person wants to keep it, don't invest it in the stock market.  Invest it in his own business, okay – some way or other.

(Invest it in your own business?)

Yeah, not in somebody else's business.  Okay?

(Bob, did you just say to… Joe…?)

Yeah, that’s Joe over there – the skinhead.

(That he's doing… he’s painting instead of working?)  (laughter)

Well, Joe knows what I meant anyway, so that’s all right.

(He’s doing what he loves, it’s fun, so he doesn’t consider that work?) 

Oh no, it's playin’, that’s just playin’.  He's just playin’ around.  ‘Cause I asked him today what he was doin’ and he said he's just playin’.

(Is that the key then?  To do something you love, you have fun with, you want to play with?)

Yep, that's one good part of it.  Be sure it's somethin’ you can do.  (laughter)  Joe thinks if it takes more than 30 minutes to paint a picture, it's a waste of time.  Okay?  You have a question, sir? 

(Not right now.)

Okay, just stretchin’.  Okay, comment?  Yes, sir…

(In some of your teaching's you refer to the different things we experience as we begin to wake up – like being considerate, and then being at a level where we want to make a contribution.  As I understand, this is a spontaneous thing.)

Right, just spontaneous.

(Do we do all this stuff when we get there?)

Do we do what?  Make money before you get there?  I suspect it would be a little better if you let a few of those little things work into where you were interested in makin’ a little contribution and that you were considerate just as a natural state of affairs.  You'd have a hard time bein’ considerate of a customer if you were angry, okay?  Okay, more comments, more questions, what-have-you?  Yes, ma’am…

(Do you recommend that people ________ unclear)

Would I recommend a certain time of day?  Oh no, I'd just kind of see that I did it every now and then.  If you're interested in it all, you'll do it enough, okay?  I wouldn't set it down and say, well, you do it from 10 until 11 every morning.  That'd be boring.  


Not quite, not quite.  Okay?  Just do it when you feel like it, but be sure you feel like it every now and then, okay.  Okay?  All right, suppose we call it a day. And I have a few people that I have private appointments with and I will have those over there in the little office and we’ll shoot the breeze on those.  The rest of you go out and practice what we talked about, especially "I'm playing the victim role.”  You will find it very useful.  Huh?

(Before we go, I wanted to talk to you just a minute about that.)

Go right ahead.

(I did that when I went to lunch and I made myself sick.)  (laughter)

How come?

(I was just listening to myself, and I found that I was playing the victim role –)

About 100% of the time.

(–while I was having my Pizza, whatever.  And then my body just said, “I don't like playing the victim role!” – physically…)

Right, I know it, so it won't like it and it'll quit in a few days.  But if you quit now, it won't quit.  It'll just go underground.  But no, the body doesn't like to play the victim role, the mind doesn't like to play it; so you just state, “I'm playin’ the victim role,” and in about a week, you will have had sufficient of it, okay.  If it makes you sick in the meantime, so what.  You've been sick before.  Okay.  That clear enough?  Okay?  [everyone claps]


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